The Sword of Courteous Debate ([info]meowse) wrote,
@ 2006-03-08 22:53:00
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I like gaming.
I like the easy optimizability of it. I like being in an arena where I am a dominant factor. I like knowing that I'm the best.

I also like mentoring people, and the bittersweet thrill of seeing someone do better than I do because of what they've learned from me.

I like gaming.

But I am really starting to dislike the costs.

I don't like having no time to cook dinner two nights a week. I don't like missing Fridays with my girlfriend. I don't like playing with people who refuse to take the game seriously (and if that preceding statement made no sense to you, then you don't quite understand what it is that I get out of gaming). And I don't like being dependent for my fun on people who aren't as competent as I am.

I don't, exactly, want to quit. But I also don't want to keep spending my time in-game doing the things I've been doing. It isn't fun.

The easy answer, of course, is "stop raiding". But at our level of gear and expertise, all of the content we can access without raiding is trivial to us. Roll a new character and start over? Well, I suppose I could, but I've kind of seen all that before. PvP? Let's see--instead of being frustrated because the people I'm relying on are incompetent, I can be frustrated because the people I'm relying on are incompetent and the people on the other team are competent. No, thanks.

I'm a little bitter right now. My guild, through basically not caring very much about my time, just succeeded in utterly wasting somewhere between 40 and 160 hours of my time. Completely avoidably.

That's something I'm not even remotely okay with.

But then again, suppose they'd actually bothered to give a damn, and I'd gotten the Elemental Focus Band of my dreams.

Oh, look! For only 160 hours out of my life, I'll do at least 19 more damage on every spell I cast. I just got two percent better.

For 160 hours?

That's a month of full-time work.

That's an approximate economic value of $16,000 dollars at contractor's wages.

That's 44 years of feeding a starving child somewhere in the world, every day of his life.

That's also 32 days of work on the Metaphorest (the house we're buying, and remodeling, in a couple of months). 16 weekends. 4 months.

Or I could be selfish. That could be 320 glorious, luscious, thrilling acts of intercourse. Or 4 years of my once-a-week high-intensity workouts. Or 80 delicious, satisfying, home-cooked meals, rich and savory and full of juice. Hell, it's 40 good fantasy or science fiction novels read, savored, enjoyed, and stored away for future use.

It's even 480 LJ posts talking about how much better my life would be if I were spending this time on something other than video games.

Y'know, I like pot (yes, I too was once young). I like the buzzy, floating feeling, and the relaxation, and the time dilation, and the heightened sense of fun (not that mine needs any heightening). But I don't smoke pot. Because I've got better things to do with my time.

I just checked something out. On my three highest-level characters, I have a total of 1262 hours played. That's not quite a full-time job for a year, but it's not an insignificant fraction of it, neither.

$126,200 at contractor's wages. 20 starving children fed from birth to age 18. Two and a half years of working every weekend on the Metaphorest. More sex, by my estimation, than I have had in my entire life to this point.

Okay, there's a scary thought--I've spent more time in the past year playing World of Warcraft than I've spent in my entire life in actual sexual intercourse.

That is a serious failure of resource allocation.

And what do I have to show for it?

I'm a respected, appreciated member of a reasonably successful end-game guild in World of Warcraft. I have a very well-equipped character and the skill to play her. And I get to spend 10 to 20 hours per week incrementally improving my gear, learning new encounters, seeing pretty pixel puzzles drawn by highly talented game designers, and beating my head against the wall when the inevitable personality conflicts get in the way of my fun.

10 to 20 hours per week. 500 to 1000 hours per year.

$50,000 to $100,000 every year, forever. Two to four nights a week that I'm not spending learning to play electric guitar, or arrange pop songs, or remodel houses. Two to four nights a week that I'm not taking pretty women out on dates, or volunteering at a soup kitchen or a suicide crisis hotline, or taking night classes toward a counseling degree. 500 to 1000 hours not spent with my daughter, in the last precious seven years before she leaves home forever. 500 to 1000 hours not spent making Christmas a family delight, keeping in touch with distant friends, getting enough sleep, working out, cleaning my house, petting the cat, meditating, shooting bugs, acting in plays, teaching classes, throwing parties, protesting injustice, teaching literacy, dreaming big dreams.

I've got better things to do with my time.



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[info]joyous_tiger
2006-03-09 09:38 am UTC (link)
That was brilliant. You've got such great brains that I hope you spend some more time using them in ways that delight and enhance the lives of those around you - as they do mine. I love the way you think and write! I laughed to tears reading this post. You are pretty damn awesome.

It's okay to have some time every week that is entirely focused on yourself. I think we all need that regularly to build up our reserves and prevent us from getting too spiritually depleted. Computer gaming can quickly become something that detracts from your life rather than allowing you to decompress and refuel for more active or social pursuits because it never really has a resolution. When we sink into a movie we can rely on the fact that after some reasonable amount of time the credits will go by and we will step away from it to do something else. We don't have to think about it. With computer gaming we have to self monitor when the fun of it is to sink in and BE there. Nothing happens to let us know that it's time to stop because it's designed to have no good stopping points.

I think comparing it to pot made a lot of sense. T.V and computer gaming are a lot more like drugs in my opinion. I'm of course not anti-drug, but I do believe in moderation and caution :)

I'm looking forward to your next workout. We'll get to work on that better use of your time.

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And this...
[info]wolfwings
2006-03-09 11:50 am UTC (link)
...is probably one of the biggest reasons I'll never play WoW.

CoX, you reach Level 50? Put the character away, go roll another, tell another story.

All the content is in the base 1-50 grind, once you hit 50, aside from playing PvP, that individual character is done for the moment unless you want to reduce your level to play out story arcs in lower-level areas that you missed the first time around.

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[info]lasa
2006-03-09 03:58 pm UTC (link)
I used to game a lot, and in the past four months have given it all up. Completely.
I missed it really badly at first - but now I'm so glad I left it behind.

Part of what made me examine my time spent in gaming was re-reading The Screwtape Letters. (if you aren't familiar, it's a great little book by CS Lewis of letters between two demons about how to draw a person away from a healthy life and a healthy spirituality. A great read.) There is a chapter about how pleasures become habits, and then it becomes easy for the person to waste time in ways that no longer feed them. One demon tells another, "One of my own patients said on his arrival down here, "I now see that I spent most of my life in doing neither what I liked nor what I ought."

I realized at that point that I was getting very little in return anymore for the time I was spending gaming. There were the moments that were great - but they were becoming fewer and farther between, and there was more and more frustration involved. I've adopted the Screwtape question as my acid test of time management - Is this something that I'm enjoying? Or that I ought to do? It's amazing how much don't fit into either category.

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[info]meowse
2006-03-09 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Hah! It's been decades since I read The Screwtape Letters, but now that you remind me of it, I do recall reading that part. Thank you for bringing it back to mind!

"pleasures become habits" makes an excellent watchword, as well.

*hugs*!

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[info]ygg13
2006-03-09 06:50 pm UTC (link)
I second that.

I've never seen someone analyze wasted time so thoroughly, and I commend you for it.

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[info]cheeseboy
2006-03-09 08:13 pm UTC (link)
It was a very nice list indeed. I find that I'm a bit safer sticking to arcade games (as far as the time alotment), as they're intended to be 2-20 minutes of gameplay and you're done. It's not days and weeks (although, can be if you let it get out of hand).

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[info]snakefeathers
2006-03-09 06:59 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, but is it fun?

If no, well then, quit (and roll up a CoH character and join my Super-Group...) ;-)

Or have sex, or play guitar, or read to your daughter, or watch a movie, or read a book.

However, I think I want to call "bullshit" on the economic analysis. presuming you're working at least 30 hours a week, there's no reason to think your leisure time would be better spent working, or that your leisure time has economic value. My leisure time is exactly that. I can't "bill" it at working rates, because I know for a fact that if I spent my leisure time working I would be a sick, exhausted stressed-out wreck with an economic value of zero.

Leisure has inherent value. It recharges you so you can go do the other things that have value (personal or economic).

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[info]meowse
2006-03-09 08:29 pm UTC (link)
"Leisure" qua leisure has inherent value, provides a break from work, recharges you.

However, gaming-as-I-have-been-doing-it uses many of the same intellectual sub-systems as my work does, and honestly drains me rather than refreshes me for my daily duties.

I think the relevance of the economic analysis is simply that if I'm going to work hard and stress myself out doing something in my leisure time, it should probably be something that makes me a ton of money. And if I'm going to grant myself true leisure time, I should probably spend it doing things that refresh and/or grow me.

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(Anonymous)
2006-03-09 10:56 pm UTC (link)
if I'm going to grant myself true leisure time, I should probably spend it doing things that refresh and/or grow me.

This is a much more compelling argument than "my time is worth $x/hour" to my mind.

Then again, I spend much of my MMO time in a semi-somnolent state that is very relaxing, so it's a primo stress-buster for me. Your mileage seems to vary.

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[info]snakefeathers
2006-03-09 10:57 pm UTC (link)
That was me, just above. stupid automatic lgout...

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[info]joyous_tiger
2006-03-09 07:37 pm UTC (link)
I think the economic scenarios were valuable and accurate. Some people really can work 60-80 hour work weeks and be okay. I'm sure not one, but it happened a lot in the IT field and probably still does. I agree that leisure time has it's own value, but wether we work 10 hours in a week or 80 we're trading our leisure time to work for money.

Even more importantly, many wealthy people make money on their leisure time. They find ways to make their hobbies profitable. Leisure time CAN be economicaly viable. We don't know what that might be in terms of real numbers until we try to make some money on a hobby, but that doesn't mean looking at a value estimate when assessing one's time is incorrect.

It's unlikely that Meowse will ever have as many hours of sex the year after stoping gaming as he has spent on WoW in the last year, but it's a reasonable example of something he could do with some of that time and useful in assessing its value. The same goes for making more money.

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[info]meowse
2006-03-09 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Regarding making money from hobbies, I wish to reference your absolutely incredible no-sugar no-dairy no-milk truffles. Should you decide to invest more time in that hobby, I can assure you that you will make money with it. :-)

In my case, actually, the economic comparison is highly relevant--in that I passed up a contract paying $100/hour so that I wouldn't have to stop gaming. When I say "That ring would have cost me $16,000 dollars", that's neither hyperbole nor hypothesis--it's realism. And programming, of the kind contained in that contract, involves many of the same pseudo-lesiure reward mechanisms as gaming.

Now, if I could get myself a counseling degree, and do counseling in my "leisure" time--that would fill me with joy. Hmm. I wonder what the appropriate degree path is in Washington State, if I'm looking for one that I can complete in the evenings and on weekends, and whose sole purpose is to legally qualify me to counsel people.

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[info]drewkitty
2006-03-09 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Having little leisure time, let me assure all of you that it is VITAL that you employ leisure time to recharge effectively.

While online gaming punches the pleasure center in my brain, it neither rests my eyes, nor my neck and back, nor calms my thoughts, nor gives me something to contemplate or ponder.

It's "fun" but it isn't satisfying. Like a candy buffet that I'm shackled to by the ankle.

I lost half a night's sleep to . . . wait for it . . . Civilization I . . .

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[info]meowse
2006-03-09 08:19 pm UTC (link)
While online gaming punches the pleasure center in my brain, it neither rests my eyes, nor my neck and back, nor calms my thoughts, nor gives me something to contemplate or ponder.

It's "fun" but it isn't satisfying. Like a candy buffet that I'm shackled to by the ankle.


Oh. My. God. Yes. That's it, exactly. Thank you for putting it so concisely and well.

"Like a candy buffet that I'm shackled to by the ankle."

Precisely.

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[info]el_adz
2006-03-10 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Like a candy buffet that I'm shackled to by the ankle.

Yes! What a wonderful metaphor, thank you.

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[info]joyous_tiger
2006-03-09 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I knew there was a reason gaming online didn't appeal to me.

And about my truffles, I have a new batch made and hope to have some left to share with you next time I se you. A woman opennig a wellness center in Olympia totally wants to buy them for her restaurant. Even if I only make enough money to pay for the process of getting them made so that I can enjoy having candy I can eat I'll be thrilled. First I have to finish developing and testing my recipes.

I ruined 1.5 pounds of chocolate on Tuesday tring to figure out how to sweeten the couverture for dipping so that it will retain the right properties for dipping and it was very frustrating. Not as frustrating as spending that time computer gaming would have left me, but challenging nonetheless *wink*.

The candy buffet analogy rocks. Good luck with the unshackling :)

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[info]woggie
2006-03-10 12:10 am UTC (link)
See, until you mentioned guilds I was sure you were talking about tabletop roleplaying games, which just aren't the same.

I agree with you on CRPGs, though. I'm trying even now to decide if I'm going to go back to City of Heroes or if I'm just going to take my marbles and go home.

My primary problem with MMOs is that other people are getting between me and my enjoyment with the game. I can't play instances without other people unless I want to gain no XP at all, and sometimes not even then, just because of the presence of elites. In CoH I'd have at least a chance of solo play, even if the graphics are a little less pretty and the spirit of the game as well as the policies of the people who host the game are ever so slightly meaner.

I'm still cogitating.

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[info]meowse
2006-03-10 01:01 am UTC (link)
Oh, no. Face-to-face imaginative-play role-playing games are socialization, and creativity, and storytelling, and psychology, and all of those other things that I enjoy so much, and that actually do feel like leisure to me.

In fact, that's one thing I forgot to put on my list of things-I-could-be-doing-instead-of-raiding-Molten-Core: GMing a tabletop game for my nearest and dearest. My GMing skills are a bit rusty, and I never had all that much practice at it--but I sure did love doing it, when I did it. And practice will make me better with time.

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[info]dingo
2006-03-10 12:38 am UTC (link)
lol burned out on hardcore raiding

quit
come back
set limits.

That's how you cure this feeling.

*shrug*

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[info]joyous_tiger
2006-03-10 01:33 am UTC (link)
Meowse, do you want to consider joining a game that Michael has been running for me and my freind Alaine? We have a hard time finding people as interested in actual role playing as us and I suspect you'd be great. We only meet once or twice a month. We lost a core player when he decided his life got to busy and we haven't played since, but we've all been itching to play again big time. Michael is a brilliant GM.

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But it *is* just a game!
[info]grimmtooth
2006-03-10 03:24 am UTC (link)
I don't like playing with people who refuse to take the game seriously (and if that preceding statement made no sense to you, then you don't quite understand what it is that I get out of gaming).

It's a game, until that time that you *do* take it seriously. Then it's something else, I dunno, not quite an obsession, but surely nothing I'd enjoy.

YES, when you play in these games you have to respect the people you play with, and respect thier needs and goals, and get the same in return. But take the GAME seriously? That's a total non-sequitor. Time to trot out Shatner to give The Speech. Totally messed up.

I really enjoyed playing WoW, right up to the point that I didn't - and I quit. If you don't enjoy it anymore, get out. I hear there's queues now, anyway. You PAY for that?

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[info]epi_lj
2006-03-10 04:21 pm UTC (link)
I never got into MMORPGs, thankfully, as they appear to be an immense time suck.

I find that over time I'm skewing almost all my gaming over into board gaming. I do sometimes think, "This would make a better video game," and I get tired of having to spend a bunch of time doing basic maintenance that the computer would do for me in a video game, but they're social. You sit around the table with your friends, in person, playing. To me, that matters a whole lot.

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OTOH
[info]gtpooh
2006-03-13 05:42 pm UTC (link)
I play WoW. I love it and am unlikely to give it up. Why, you ask, after that powerful message about wasted time. First of all, I have fibro myalgia. That means that I cannot do almost anything I used to like to do. . dance, garden, walk around the lake. Anything more than mild exercise, including sex, leaves me achey for days. The sex is worth it, but there are limits.

Second, my husband, our housemate and three of my four adult children play. This means that I get to spend a fun time with my family. One of them lives a distance away and works odd hours, so it is delightful to get up early and spend an hour or two reconnecting with my oldest. Additionally, I have the opportunity to meet new people and socialize without having to drive to people's houses or clean my own. I adore my guildmates and we have many lively, stimulating conversations while waiting for battlegrounds or for other people to show up for quests.

Third, what's a waste of time? I could use this time learning to play the guitar, something I started when I was young. But where would I play it? In my group of friends are real musicians. I would much rather listen to them. I could be on Tribe arguing about the environment, religion and politics, which is arguably another waste of time, but something that I find very recreating. Sex, a waste of time to some folks as well, requires a willing and available partner and, in the amounts you suggest, a healthy body, while WoW . . .doesn't. I don't do as much volunteer work as I would like, but my own health has to come first and most volunteer efforts require more physcially than I can give.

There are many things I could be doing. I would rather be playing WoW. When everything is said and done, and I'm dying, I will be able to look back on hours of time spent with people I love doing things we all liked rather than lying in bed bemoaning the things I am unable to do. Added bonus? Teaching a late 40ish brain to play something as complicated as WoW will surely help me fend of dementia. LOL

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[info]meowse
2006-03-13 07:20 pm UTC (link)
*laugh* Thank you for sharing that delightful other-perspective on WoW!

And, to a large extent, I agree. Two days after posting this, I spent three delightful hours killing demons in Winterspring with two good friends. Waste of time? By no means--we had fun, we developed strategies, we had social bonding time.

We even had a misunderstanding and consequent argument, which allowed me to practice my conflict-resolution skills and crow-eating.

I think it's more that I'm spending a bigger chunk of time on recreation than I'm comfortable with, and that a lot of what I've been doing in WoW hasn't been constituting recreation, it's been "grinding for loot".

I think my answer is to find "improving" activities that I can do more of (music, remodeling, education, volunteering, time with my daughter, housekeeping, exercise, political activism), to make sure that my time spent in WoW is spent doing things I actually care about (learning new content, helping friends, socializing with real life friends in-game, etc.), and to reduce the amount of time I spend doing things I don't enjoy in-game (arguing with morons, doing the same content over and over again to get loot, solo-grinding boring mobs).

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